An Interview with a Voracious Serial Embezzler

You are listening to the Dental Practice Owners Podcast, brought to you by Prosperident. From our unique perspective as dentistry's embezzlement experts, Prosperident's team can bring you the information that is important to practice owners. The Dental Practice Owners Podcast brings you strategies, tools, and tips that you can use, and dentistry's thought leaders as guests. So sit back, relax, and listen to Prosperident's Amber Weber, Wendy Askins, and David Harris

to talk about the issues that matter to you.

Hi, this is David Harris from Prosperident. Today, I've got an interesting podcast for you. I'm going to play for you an interview that I did with a notorious serial embezzler. This woman has worked for probably 15 practices and has stolen from many of them. The amount of money she's stolen in total is pretty hard to tell me, but it's certainly hundreds of thousands of dollars. She's just left to break up destruction in her past.

I don't get people involved. She's served at Cripple Prison Terms for an hour and I'll keep your name out of it. And we will simply talk about an unnamed ex-prodster. Again, I'm fascinated. The way this conversation came about is kind of a rarity. She's only more or less out of the blue right now.

I'd like to create a client where, for a guy like me, the chance to have an unstructured, inscripted conversation with an embezzler is just priceless. Here's what I'll do. If there's going to be an article, I'm going to send you a draft first. And you can decide if you want your name in the article or not based on how it presents you. I honestly don't know which direction that's going to go yet.

Is that fair? I'm fair. Again, I want to create a scenario where you feel comfortable telling me your story in a way that it won't harm you publicly. But what are you going to do? Publish it in Toronto Star or something?

I wouldn't go there. Anything I publish would be in a dental publication only. But again, you will have control over whether your name is in it or not. If you say I don't want my name in it, I will remove any means of somebody identifying you. I won't say somebody from Toronto or somebody from Ontario or somebody from Canada. I understand.

My other question is, when we spoke last time, you said you're not interested in the dentist. You're interested in how the staff feels. But no matter what I say to you, it connects to that. That's fair enough. I just wanted to be clear that my company does not investigate or report or do anything when dentists break the rules.

We only work for dentists and that's a business model that we have. It's a decision we've made. So I just wanted you to know that. Okay, that's fine. I just want to say what I want to say. Please.

Again, I'm so fascinated to have the chance to communicate. Why am I the only person that calls you back? We don't get to speak to the protesters very often. Why? Usually we just investigate them and make a report and go on to the next file. So this is a real treat for me.

But when you get your stories, you usually get your stories from the dentist. So how will you know what the truth is? Because you always treat eyes for the story. There certainly are. We talk to the dentist and we get their stories. Then we go and investigate.

Most of our information comes from looking at the practice management software and the checkbook and the bank account and things like that. If you would have done that with Dr. Friedman, you would know that it's impossible from his practice to steal $300,000. Okay, and we did not do that with Dr. Friedman. He did.

Because I have an article in front of me that wrote that he met me on my first day of the job. I don't know what you know about Roll Wyman. I don't. I just want to copy the article. That's a long ago.

Okay, and I don't know if I've ever even seen that article. But Roll was a practicing dentist. He died about a month and a half or two months ago. An older guy. I mean, he would have been... Yeah, I see his picture.

He was the beard and all that other stuff. Yeah, that's Roll. So he did work... He told me anyway that he worked as an associate in one of the practices you worked in, and I'm not sure... That's not true.

It never happened. Okay. I'm not sure it was Dr. Friedman or somebody else's. I think he... No, because I know exactly who I worked for, and I've never, ever, ever...

I know exactly where I was charged. I know exactly who I worked for, because it was never any associate. But anyway... Okay, I'll make a note of that. I'm in communication with his wife,

and I can... If I get from you kind of the list of doctors, I'll go back and check with her, and I'll just make sure that we... No problem. Because if the facts are wrong here,

I want to know that. Okay, so... In fact, no matter what I read before, I kind of just sometimes it's better to leave things alone and move on, but until this article was shown to me, that's when it's really kind of said,

I want to call these people, because we all make mistakes, but they need to understand what happens to me and my state of mind, and whatever. Anyway, let's proceed.

Okay. So I've got... Could I ask you some questions, and have you answered them, and then after that... You can ask anything you want.

Okay. And then after that, you know, whatever else you'd like to say, I'm very interested in. No problem, Mr. Harris. I know you know me only by what you see on paper.

Yeah. If you were to meet me in person, you'd be surprised. Well, you know, I was going to say I'd love to do that. I'm not in Toronto all that often, but sometime when I am, you know, lunch is absolutely on me.

You should definitely do that. You would be surprised. Okay. I think someone ruined their life like this. And please call me David. Mr. Harris sounds pretty formal.

Thank you. So just to go back to the basics, where were you born? I was born in Russia. Russia. Okay.

And when did you come to Canada? In 1982. Okay. I was 12 years old or 14. Okay. And I was just trying to figure out your names

because you think was your married name, right? It was my married name, and focus was my maiden name. Okay. That's the only two names that I have. Okay.

Because the Ontario College, I think, said you were using one other name at some point. I don't have any other names. Okay. Or something like that? Never had that name.

Okay. Okay. Again, all that information came from, not necessarily on a source. Okay. So all my legal documents have two names, folks,

and Cherniakovsky. The only reason I still kept Cherniakovsky is because of my custody of the kids. Yeah. I know what a nuisance it is. Especially when you travel.

My sister's been married a couple of times and divorced a couple of times. Yeah. And, you know, she's got passports in one name and credit cards in another.

Right. I guess so. It's a big nuisance. Okay. So when did you start working in the dental world then? In 1988, I went to career Canada College

after I finished high school. Okay. And I took a dental assistant course. And I got married in 1989. And I was already working for two years as a dental assistant.

Okay. You said you got married in what year? 1989. 1989. Okay. And you were working then as an assistant?

Okay. For the longest time, I was a dental assistant for the longest, longest time. Okay. So when did you start working in dental front offices then?

If I can clearly remember back in 1995 after I had my daughter, my second child. Okay. Up to 1995, I was working as a dental assistant. And I was a good assistant.

I was clean. Multitasking is my strongest skill. And I was the type of person that every dentist wanted in their office, to be honest with you. It's not amazing how things can turn around.

After my daughter was born, my ex-husband and I, we had a franchise. So I left a dental field. I left a dental field all the way probably up to 2005.

I had a franchise. I had a gas station with Sonoco. I was number one in Ontario and my service, claiming that my station had the highest sales volume.

I was number one. I have trophies. I have articles in the paper of me cutting ribbons with mayor. Never had a criminal record in my life. My sudden separation happened.

Is it okay if I just tell you the whole thing? Yeah, please. I'm listening. I mean, I did a little bit of research online and I saw some of your divorce stuff. On my divorce stuff,

I didn't know there was anything there for that. Yeah, there's a bit of it online. Oh, okay. This was from about 2003. So it sounds like... Well, I separated from 2001.

We separated, but we bought a brand new house and we were both doing really well with our franchise. In fact, because I was doing so well with Sonoco, that I also had my Sonoco station in Oakville.

It was the millennium side that I opened and I was in the newspaper with the mayor cutting the ribbon. It had country-style donuts drive-through. So after being a gold winner award, every month Sonoco country-style

offered us to buy a donut shop. My husband and I were doing financially well, very well. In fact, that's what destroyed us. So my husband bought a country-style donut in Peterborough.

Yeah, I saw that. Okay. And, you know, it kind of just made... There was still that hope that we were going to get back together. I was like, in 2000.

And when I was 32 years old, I had two kids. He's the only man I've ever been with. He was my first. And, of course, with divorces, and they're like, okay, time to move on to the next one.

For me, it was an embarrassment for my family because I was the only one that got divorced. You know, and I worked really hard. I was getting... But my performance at the gas station started to lack because I had a really, really big size

with staff of 22 under me. And it was all the way to Oakville. I was a mother at the same time to two young children. And it was just really hard. I didn't know what to do. I met a person by the name Gregorito Gaiden

who, you know, I developed a relationship with my ex-husband, moved down with someone, too. But there was still talks about getting back together. And I was so naive because, how do you move in with another woman and still promise me that we will get back together?

So by 2004, I knew things will never be the same again. So I pursued this relationship with this Gregory guy. Who was a gambler and very, very abusive. Oh, gosh. So I started... I had a town home.

That was mine with a big mortgage. But I was able to pay for it because I had a franchise. I had a syndical. And in fact, ESO, because I was with ESO prior to that, they offered me to come back to them. So I can leave the reputation with my ex-husband

being in the same company. So I pursued a smaller side. But as soon as work paid my bills and I had my relationship with Gregory, and I took a second mortgage in my house for Gregory, for his dad's, for his business.

And we were together for about two years. And to be honest with you, he took me to the cleaner. Okay? It's just something that maybe women or men go through after a divorce. You develop some kind of a post-traumatic disorder where you just want to have that family.

My very first job, I give up the gas station because I had to pay off the bills and I had to get my security deposit back, which was $25,000. So I could sell my house and just sit fresh again in my life. And I started looking for a job.

My next door neighbors were, his name is Tim Kirshenblatt. He's a very popular, well-known Toronto accountant. Everybody knows Tim Kirshenblatt. He was my next door neighbor and his wife, second wife, Maria.

She was my friend. So they said to me, you know, you went to school for dental assisting. You should just go back that fresh. And again, keep in mind, I never had a criminal record in my life.

Of course. I think maybe when I was 16, I think I saw the chocolate bar because my dad's going for it. Anyway. So I moved on and, you know, I started applying and I get this ad,

Dr. Friedman's Discover. I go to Dr. Friedman's interview and he hired me like on the spot. And again, I was young, pretty. I had a lot of intelligence about me. Now when you read on paper,

he hired me in the fact the very first day that I came to work, I came with bruises because Gregory needed money for me the day before. And I was kind of like beating up a little bit, which again, I don't understand now how I like myself to get to that point.

And so I am driving in 401.

Can you hear me now? That's perfect. Yes. Thank you. If we get caught up and call me back. Anyways, so I started working for Dr. Friedman.

It wasn't a very busy practice. It's this area of Scarborough and Eglinton, which is I don't judge anyone because there was a time when I was in welfare. It was a welfare area. He had a few maybe city of Toronto clients.

So the office was not busy. And in fact, I would have loved for you to investigate those dates that I worked for him so you can see his revenue. Anyways, David used and David wasn't married. And he wanted to pursue a relationship with me.

Again, I was young, you know, I was attractive, whatever. And I would, I didn't even have a car. So he would offer to drive me home or to drop me off at the gas at the subway station because I just didn't want to, you know, it happened where I lost everything. My kids ended up moving to Peterborough to live with my husband

because I was renting the room. That's how low I hid my life because of the relationship and the divorce. Okay, wow. My family didn't want to have anything to do with me. And I don't know if you're saying, well,

because you're being sarcastic or because you can understand what I was going to say. No, no, I look, I'm feeling for you right now. And, you know, Whether you do or not only, you know what I know. I'm telling you the truth because so many years later,

it's like shower. So remember round the curse, not curse and blood,

round the curse running his office. David at that time, I think it was 2005, which is when I came back to the downhill field, he was pushing for bleaching for all that stuff. Patients don't have the coverage. It was David himself that taught me how to fill

three surfaced root canal to light up to the price of the bleaching, which was $800 or $900. So he knew I was needy. He used to drive me home and God is my witness. These were his words. So arena, do you want my wallet?

Or do you want my writer? And he was referring to his private part that way. I'm a David stop. Like I don't want to talk about this. Like I don't want anything. I don't want to relationship.

I don't want anything like I'm studying over in my life. So it started doing where, and he also had a Russian hygienist working there. I can't remember her name, Elena or Lena. I can't remember. I'm sure you'll be able to find that.

So patients used to come the ones that did have insurance and he was maxed out in three to four days. The hygienist used to say, David, I have nothing to scale or polish anymore. He's like, just do long, just talk to the person. Like talk to them because there was no patient.

There was no patient because my kids were so desperate to come back and be with me again, because they didn't want to be with in Peterborough with their stepmother who didn't want them at the one. She actually threatened my husband. She said, it's either me or your children.

And he was waiting for me to get back in my feet and take my kids. That I truly love the door and I would give up my life for them. And I am a good mom. I realized that to me. I'm sure that was a horrible place to be.

You asked a minute ago if I was being sarcastic or not. I'm not sarcastic here. I'm a dad myself. That's true. When I speak to Dennis, I tell him that.

Everybody has a point. They become desperate and they do things that normally they just would never do. And I can see very clearly, living in a room and with your stuff and storage and your kids with their dad who didn't want them.

You're writing a franchise and being number one and I'm telling you, I'll be more than happy to send you the articles and the trophy. This is what destroyed my marriage because I was going to have a meeting

and they would call the first name. They would say Irina. But when they say Chinookah, my husband would get up because he had a gas station that filled them more than.

He would resent me because I overgrown him. But it's a much personality. Much of people. Much of people. I'm a people's home with David, David.

David knew I was the one. He took advantage of me. He took advantage of me. I still judge him more

because this is not the kind of fraud that needed so much publicity. It's in the records. In the courts. It's in the script. So the amount of money that I do take from David

and I know this, I know this. What's roughly five or seven thousand. Not a penny more than seven thousand. Dr. Friedman. The reason he also went after me so hard is because he found out

that while his sister was working under the table for him, she was taking her brother, her ex-husband stand to the cleaners by placing a recording. It's a nice thing that people do

because she took away the custody of the kids. She may stand with his license. And next thing they know, because I said to them, you know, like my friends, we heard me like so innocent

that they said to me, who's your lawyer? To your divorce. Because he saw that I was suffering. He saw that my kids wanted to come home to live with me.

They were calling me at work. And I said, oh, I was referred to, I can't even remember, Jack Straitman, that was the lawyer. And Ronda almost fell off the chair. She said, who referred you to Jack Straitman?

I said, oh, my next-door neighbor, Stan Christianblatt, she got off, got off from the chair like she had fire in her pants, ran to David. David said, asked me to speak to me after work.

And I had no clue that that was the lawyer that was representing Stan against Ronda and David. So there was a little bit of that involved, too, which you guys don't know about. Sorry, can you just take me through that again,

because I didn't quite follow that, and I want to understand. And David's sister, Ronda Friedrich, which goes by the last name, Kersh, was in a very ugly divorce with her ex-husband, Stan Christianblatt.

Right, okay. Who's the same guy who sent you to this office? My name's their neighbor and my friend. He didn't send me to the office. He sent me to a lawyer to represent me, but I couldn't afford it.

Okay. And when David and Ronda found out that I'm being represented by Jack's treatment, which I wasn't, I just went for a free consultation, and they found out that Stan Christianblatt referred me. That's why, excuse my language,

they should hit the fan because now, they will know that Ronda worked for her brother, had her Mercedes under his name. How can you know? Because she's playing this abusive, beaten wife. So Ronda and Stan were married, is that...

Yes, they have three children. Okay, gotcha. All right, so Ronda was working under the table. Yeah, she was doing a lot of things, and they were doing all these billings. Right.

So the way we got caught is that somebody from Great West Life called or a patient came into the office and said, why was this wood canal? Bill, then I didn't have it. So David charged me, okay?

Okay. David charged me, I'm out in bail. I'm looking for a job. Now, the stupidity is, I have conditions that I'm not allowed to work in the dental office.

Right, I know that. Being very shallow, being very shallow, I didn't realize that I can go change, you know, condition, explain that I have two children. This is what I went to school for. I don't know what else to go work.

I don't want to work at McDonald's. I just, like, I think I was just in such a shock and denial. I dealt with my charges. I was never running away from courts. Police officers thought I was very intelligent

and also, you know, but I just didn't know what my rights were like. I didn't have lawyers. And when someone steals so much money, they would have the best legal representative to represent them.

I didn't. I had legal aid. I had court officers. Yeah. So where's all that money? So when I got charged,

David was publishing all these papers and articles. He even found out where my mom works. He went to her work, to her bakery three times. He told her, he's going to put me away for life. Like, for what? For five, seven thousand?

I'm sorry. Like, I will pay you back. You just don't understand. Because you're the greedy asshole that one day comes to work with Ferrari, next day with Porsche,

and builds road canals for bleaching. So I got a job. Like, let me just remember clearly which office because I can't remember in order. But I'll tell you this much. No matter, there was three dances.

And that's it. There was Dr. Friedman. I think I got a job with Dr. Schachter, which is... I didn't even do fraud there because he never wrote anything.

He never came to court. But I think I breached my condition because I deposited a check into the IDC. And that's what insurance companies said. Like, David was going after me after the check, after whatever, whatever.

So I breached my bail again. I lost my job. I'm out on bail again. Still in my room. Still no kids. Still no money.

And I think the last office where it just kind of did it all was Dr. Kirsch, which is an old Jewish man. In fact, I brought him my daughter because my daughter needed with us. Also, I brought him my daughter to do the wisdom tea, to do the canines to be extracted.

And he told me to... He's going to charge me almost $400 cash. So I gave him the cash. But then I got bleached because there was also some buildings involved there because I did take the money,

but it was probably $2,000 that I took the most from him. And he wrote that I took roll, wrote and that I took $3,000 a day. Again, he's retired. He sees two discreet patients a day. Possible to take so much money,

even if he wanted to. Does that not make sense? Because I always wanted for you guys to go in to look at their schedule for the days that I was there and the kind of procedures that were done.

And tell me, how is it possible to steal $20,000 in two weeks? Or how is it possible to steal from Dr. Freeman $300,000 and jewelry and credit cards? Okay. I see your point.

So... All right. I'll try again for Dr. Kirsch. Okay. And so you got caught there and then... And charged.

Which one? The other guy. Right. I mean, I dealt with some of my charges in between. Whatever, whatever. Anyways, it was just like...

It was a mess. It was a mess that I didn't know how to run away from. I wasn't running away from it. I just didn't know how to deal with it. I just kind of give up. I give up on life.

I just give up on everything because everything was going against me and all these horrible accusations, all these wrong amounts, all these... And I knew. I knew what the doctors were doing themselves,

but I just couldn't see. Nobody wanted to hear my story. Yeah. So I... At this point, like everything is just going down the hill. Every office I went to, there was fraud.

Everywhere I would be breached. And yes, even if I did take a thousand here, a thousand there, it wasn't hundreds of thousands. And the doctors were doing more fraud than I ever did. So I think at the end, I had charges between Toronto and Newmarket.

I applied to some here. I applied to some there. Somewhere I got probation. Somewhere I got a conditional sentence. And I still had my other charges. The very last job,

the very last job that I took was in Oakville. I was a productive and capable guy. And he was also doing fraud, like crazy, billing for bleach. Everybody was fishing bleaching.

And Invisalign, it became very popular. I got caught in 2008. Invisalign, 2007. Right? Right. So Invisalign is not covered for adults.

So what do you do? Even if he was selling all the electrical toothbrush, he would be charging it as an emergency bill of 125 or 130 to cover the electrical toothbrush. Yeah, I know.

I know he got in trouble for... Because I spoke the truth. And that's when the police officer said to me, why would you do something? They charged me because of the billing. But that's because I finally had enough.

And I spoke the truth. I explained. I had a concurrent sentence. I did two years plus a day. I was out on parole after six months. And I was there.

But while I was in custody back then, Dr. Friedman would call my parole officer, my probation officer. He would call and call and post, even when I came out and dealt with everything. I was on probation.

I said to myself, I need to work because my kids moved them back with me. I need to work. So I found... When you were in prison, your kids were husband, I'm assuming.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, actually, they left... He actually kicked them out. That's the sad part. So my son moved in to a family friend.

He worked a lot. He quit school, which broke my heart even more because of me. They had to, like, suffer so much. And my daughter was still... I was fun-harming with my ex.

She was spending more time with her boyfriend. When I came home to work as a waitress, I scrapped people's home to rent an apartment, which I did. Then my kids immediately moved in with us. And we also bought a dog.

And that dog was the most healing solar problem. And he just passed away from lymphoma. And I haven't been saved because... He was an Italian last 15 quarters. So he would just keep me calm. He would just keep me calm and deal with the articles,

with the pages. So I went to work for Dr. Ashkivari. She's a Persian dentist. It's a terrier ball right by my house. And I said to my kids, I can't do this.

She offered me $25 an hour. And I said, I can't do this. If a patient comes in, she was Persian. And if a patient came in with three wisdom teeth, and one was permanently missing, like sometimes you just don't have your fourth wisdom tooth.

She would bill for that too. Every crown had to have a graft. Everything had to be this. She was all about money, money, money. In fact, one of the hygienists, Leslie Bloom, that I'm friends with,

knew exactly what was going on. One day at work, Dr. Ward, and they loved me. I was working honest for them. I didn't do any fraud.

I just... When she did the billing, I would say, Leslie, I can't bill this. It's wrong. She's like, make your notes. Make your notes.

I was making notes. I was told by Dr. Shashkar Wadi to bill this, to bill that. Again, I had rent to pay of $1,300. And I had my kids back home with me, which is all I wanted.

One day, Dr. Ward is sitting in the office waiting to do the dental magazine. And he sees an article of me. And I didn't know that. And I'm the one that put that magazine on his desk. Oh, wow.

So, well, I didn't even know. I didn't care. I didn't want to think about anything. I never thought that the treatment that I'm home now would still be harassing me. And again, if someone behaved like that,

if you have psychology education, you know it's because they're protecting themselves. And so did Dr. Kirsch. In fact, if you were to go back and look at my daughter's name in Dr. Kirsch's files, if it's still there, you will see that he deposited the $400 that I gave him

and then he took it out because you can go into Modify Transactions. And you can see, because the moment he charged me, he put the money back in because one of the girls that worked there told me that.

She does the thing, I remain friends with everyone from the staff and they told me, she's like, I mean, he put the money back and then he deleted it and he couldn't back again. So, Leslie, one of my friends with a hygienist

with Dr. Shashkovaari, told me what happened. When they saw the article, they had to think about it. And because of Dr. Shashkovaari being highlighted by Mani Life,

and you can look into that too, Dr. Shashkovaari being, she had three practices. They were called, smile, something. One was at Fairview Mall. One was in Orangeville.

One was in Pickering. She was being audited by every insurance company. It was the safest way for them to fire me, but to fire me with a police report. So police charged me with breach, but there was never any fraud charges.

Okay. There was never any fraud charges after that, not come work at all. But they did it to protect themselves and Leslie stopped working for her. And it turns out a couple of years after that,

she had to sell all her practices because she would have flagged everywhere and she just has a very tiny option. Leslie works for Dr. Kirshen's daughter, Rebecca Holbert, who is flagged by Mani Life,

who makes a 15-year-old, they have to be billed for you, 11114 plus an exam, plus this, plus that. I've never seen a 10-year-old or a 15-year-old getting billed so many units for scaling.

And now she's flagged everywhere. And Rebecca says, these are the people that charged you. But these are the people that are doing so much fraud. Why didn't you report them? I called Royal College of Dental Surgeons at one point.

And I said, you know, like I said, I have some, but I don't think I have enough credibility to tell my story. I was going to say, I think if, you know, in your case,

where you probably at this point weren't even really supposed to be working in dental offices anyway. But I'm allowed. I'm allowed. My probation, I only had, I had two years plus a day. Plus three years probation. Which I finished successfully,

except for one breach, right? And my probation officer met my kids. He knew how much my kids loved me and how much they wanted. But it's like, there was never any love that was hidden.

But they knew that their dad was, you know, there's good dad and there's bad dad, right? So they knew that my ex-husband didn't want to play any part in their lives. It still doesn't. And they knew that, they knew that, you know,

I was on my own and I was in a bad relationship that took me to the cleaners and I was just trying to survive. I was allowed to work in a dental office, but I didn't. I opened up my business with windows and doors.

I was doing really well. I got back in my feet. You know, I knew that God knew the truth. He knew. He knew my business for doing drugs. It weren't because I have addictions.

It wasn't because I wanted to go to a whole transfer and buy myself a coat. Yeah. Or come to work and show off my Louis Vuitton bag, just to call these dentists wives and sisters and daughters too.

It's because I just wanted to have my kids home. Yeah. And everyone knows that. Yeah. I can show you letters from jail to my kids. I wanted my son to go back to,

my kids don't drink, you know, smoke. They don't do drugs because of the way I raised them. And now they're 24 and 21 almost. And I'm so annoying in their face because I'm trying so hard for them not to make a mistake. Because I'm trying so hard for them not to trust the wrong people.

Because I know, because I know how materialistic pressure. I know how it's lit. Yeah. So Dr. Bogai, one of the assistants that worked for him stole so much money that she opened up a tagging salon. I bailed $4,000 for a business line for a patient.

Nigel Ice came after him. So he decides to look into my bag and reports me. I'm sitting at work and those cops show up, which is fine. I didn't want any more bail. I just wanted to deal with it. And that's how I found out that he was charged after.

Because it's funny, I was watching TV, he'd be 24 and it says dentist charge in Oakville. But he paid mighty. He got three months. He licensed Rainstain and he moved back to Florida. Yeah.

I'd heard that. Because when you have money, you can walk away from a murder. Yeah. You can. go away from anything when you don't have money, you're nobody. And, you know, Dr. Friedman was in court room,

and he gave such an impact statement that he's terrorized and traumatized, and the article that I have from, I'll be more than happy to send it to you, saying that I sold over 300,000, I sold jewelry, and the dentist became painfully aware of the situation, that I sold over 300,000, wound up in jail,

Irina Chernokovsky will be soon released, and we'll no doubt be back to her old tricks. I met Irina on her first day in a dental office, where she just had started work as a receptionist, a lovely person who you'd be happy to hire at first sight. Three weeks later, she had been fired,

having already stolen about 30,000. How is that possible? Even if you deposit so much money into the bank, the bank will flag you. Yeah, I mean, I have to think that somebody who was smart and stealing could find a way around that,

because we see that all the time, but I take your point. Yeah, I'm just looking at something here that Dr. Friedman said. I don't, the last thing I'm gonna believe is that you're stupid. No, I am stupid to make this mess of my life.

Well, people do fraud. I was in jail with girls. I honestly, whoever thinks jail is a rehab place, no, that's when you learn to do more fraud. I was in jail with people that would print welfare checks, go to the bank without a debit card,

would draw money, and I would say, how do you know how to do that? She's like, you just learn patients detail, a customer's detail, all their last 10 transactions, then you just shoot it out of your mouth. I was like, oh my God, all these girls,

they were in jail, like they were on vacation. They had money in the bank, and they were just chilling, and they had Range Rover's and Mercedes at home, and I had nothing to go to. I came out of jail, I didn't have 10 dollars to do, to do my nails, so I can look decent.

You don't have to believe anything I say. I think if you're in this field, you can put certain things together, but Dr. Seedman is the one that went after me so hard. It's because he has so much, so much. I wish.

I don't ever remember the days that I worked for him, but I knew it was a very short period of time. If you were to go back and look at the schedule, and look at, just request the schedule that I was there, request. Anyways, not too long ago,

I wanted to get a job at a dental office. I said, you know what? What the hell? Let me try it, because you know, we all need a steady paycheck, and then my name came up to someone that someone knows,

and then I'm presented with this article, and I'm like, holy shit. 10 years later, I still can't clean myself from this. I was told if I had 15, 20 thousand dollars, I would hire a lawyer, and they can go after all of them

and prove that they're the biggest frauds, but I don't have that money, because every cent that I have, I put into my kids' school, my daughter's in college, my son is living in Thailand,

teaching the kids in private American boarding school. I speak to him 20 times a day. I love my kids to death. I'm the only thing they have in their life, and I don't trust people. I don't want to be around people,

because my past is what people keep advantage of. Just like, I'll give you a perfect example. I opened up my own company with Windows and Doors, it's called Alora Windows and Doors. I had a company that was generating lead. I would go to people's houses,

I would decorate their home because I'm a passionate person. I'm all about love and family, something that was taken away from me. People were cultures from India, Greek, Canadian, they just loved me. They loved me because I wish you would give me a person.

It's not the mugshot that you have in front of you. And I would hire installers, and some installers see that I'm a woman. It's just the story of my life. People like to take advantage of me. Installers would see that I'm a woman,

so they would say, oh, you know, we need a little bit of pocket here. It's extra $20. Oh, the windows are short, we need this. You know, so they would try to overcharge me and then I say to myself,

how is it that I'm selling all these contracts by the time I pay the factory, by the time I pay the installers, I have no money left, right? Because people try to screw you over with that. Welcome to the real world.

People try to screw you over. You're not going to admit it to me, but you know it's true. So I had a friend I posted on Facebook that I'm looking for installers. So one of my friends that I went to school with

that knows what happened to me in the past. In fact, they even talk about it openly. I don't hide it. I'm like, yeah, because I have people on my Facebook that went to jail too, for millions of dollars of fraud.

Okay. At least they live in houses and they drive Mercedes. I live in the rental apartment. So she says, oh, my husband, you know, he's so good. Like you should definitely hire him. I hired him as a installer.

She saw my contract. He was trying to install windows like a house with 20, 30 windows on Caledonia properties. He was trying to install two, three days. Screw me over. Tell me, oh, I need more staff.

Oh, I need a scaffold set up. It's $400. I said, listen, if you need a scaffold set up, I'm selling you a job. How you get to the third floor is not my problem. Am I right?

Sure. So you know what they did? They went to the police to say that I defrauded them. Police officer called me. It happens to be one of the police officers. They charged me with fraud in the past.

And I was more than happy to meet up with him. And we talked and he's like, why are these people taking advantage of me because there's no fraud. You sell him a job by square footage if he needs to hire extra help

to finish his job in three days instead of five days. That's his problem, not yours. That's his problem, not yours. Yeah, of course. That's just my advice. So this article was given to me.

And you know, I called Bill Health because he's the one that wrote it. And then he wrote it. And here I am talking to you, especially if you have any more questions, just go ahead, ask me anything you want.

Okay, well, look, first of all, thank you very much for having this conversation. I know it was hard for you. I don't know how much good it was due for me, but I was honest with you. Yeah, I don't know either,

but you know, I would like to tell your side of the story. And I see your side of the story as being somebody who was in an extremely difficult position. And I think did what a lot of people would do. What I did was wrong, but I didn't take the amount that I'm being accused of.

That I know for sure, because when someone has that money, they have lawyers, they have cars, they have places to live. Yeah, I agree. Okay, yeah, there are a couple of questions

I have out of curiosity. Just a reminder again, that we are recording this. And then I said to, you know, that I would send you a copy of the recording. Can I just say one more thing before I switch to Trump? Old Jewish, I have nothing about Jewish dentists

because I'm Jewish myself, but all these Jewish dentists that so-called belong to also Amiga, they're all old crooks that scam, they know the old system, they know how to repop the government,

they know how to repop the World College of Mental Services and they know how to bill and they get away with everything because they have money and they have a title to their name. And that's what Dr. Friedman said to me.

The only reason I'm better than you is because I have three letters, DDS attached to my name. I'll never forget when he said that to me. Interesting statement. Yeah, I noticed that you worked for a lot of Jewish dentists.

I didn't know you were Jewish. I didn't work for them because of that. No, I don't. I worked for them because 90% of them are Jewish. Yeah, yeah, there's a pretty big- And here it goes, that's all there was.

Yeah, that's true. Okay, as I say, thank you for sharing the story. I would love to write an article about this, but it's really going to be about your side of things. But you're a representative dentist, so I would say anything.

Well, I do, Irina, but I'm also interested in the truth and I want dentists to understand what can happen to somebody when they feel like they're painted into a corner. And that's where you were. My clothes were in the back seat of my car

before I got rid of my car. All I wanted, I used to pay David my phone bill from calling long distance to Peterborough to speak to my kids, just to abuse me.

They would take my phone or my kidney to traumatize everybody going home. I'm thankful that I have my kids. Even though they're older, they're highly in the house, but we have that bond between us. And they know that I sacrificed my life for them.

Yeah. And my son always says to me, Mom, very soon I will take care of you, the way you take care of us. You can't see this because it's a phone conversation, but I'm having trouble swallowing right now.

I'd love to show you some pictures. If you have access to Facebook or my Facebook, all you'll ever see is the love from my kids, my FaceTime, them, the dogs that we have. I'm all about family. I don't post any garbage.

I don't text young people. You know, honestly, time I've looked at your Facebook site, you know, I'm a private investigator, right, that's what I do. And yeah. They're open.

By the way, I don't even know if it's open or not. Yeah, I can see, I think everything on it. And tell me, David, what did you see? Be honest with me. Just like I'm honest with you, what did you see? I see a mom who loves her kids and her dog.

That's exactly what I saw. I've looked at your site a couple of times, but you know, after you called on Tuesday, I took a, or Monday it was, I think it was. I took another look and yeah, that's what I see. And you know, it's, again, I just see you

as somebody who got in a very difficult situation and... Do you know that I saw the social workers from E-Fri, social workers from GVI as friends in my Facebook. They don't add criminals, but they saw me. They met my kids. They know me.

And they know that it's another person. I'm sure there is. And I want to tell your side of the story now. And you know, I'd like to keep your name. I don't know if I'm out of it, but you know, I think that's something we can talk about

further when I get my thoughts on paper. Oh, I do want to keep my name out of it. Well, because I don't want to hurt you again when you're looking for, you know, I just don't want to re-victimize you. Why do you think that's, we will come up to me again?

No, I don't think that at all, but I just don't want to put something in paper that mentions your name again, where you know, you're looking for work in another dental office in two years and they see that piece of paper.

I would never go back to dental office. It's not corrupted. Okay, fair enough. Are you going to mention any of the doctor's names? No, because that would point right back to you. I don't care.

I spoke the truth. Okay. Let me, I'd like to grasp something. It may be, you know- Are you able to go to David's office, David Friedman and check the schedules

and all that other stuff at all? Not without his invitation. I'm not, no. Of course. And I don't, I can't imagine that he would want me to do that.

Exactly. So, you know- But you guys believed him. You believed the lies that he said to you. Well, all we can see is what's, you know, what's a matter of public record.

And- You know, what about in the public record that the judge more said, it's not your charges that are getting you, the federal, it's the fact that you can breach in your bail.

Yeah. And so, David Friedman, and he said, this is not the kind of case that needed so much complicity. And if Dr. Friedman is going so hard at it, what is it that he has to hide himself?

Well, that's a, I didn't, I didn't see that statement by the judge. And I'll look for it now. It's in the court papers. You have to request it from College Park. Okay.

I'll look for it now. But I mean, I think the point I would like to make, and again, remember, Irina, that my audience is dentists. You know, the point that I want to make is that sometimes good people make bad choices because they don't really see any option.

You know, that's what I think your story is here. Sorry, if I can just go back to what's happened now. So you're in the window and door business. It sounds like, eventually, that didn't work out for you. No, I'm still doing it. I have a lot of referrals.

I'm also selling some clothing. And I've heard the life, right? Yeah. Well, I'm trying to lose a little bit of weight. I think from all this stress, I developed under active thyroid.

I had to put on a little bit of pounds, but I still look good. I'm being told, and I'm sure you've seen my picture. But I don't have a self-esteem. I just don't feel as comfortable. I used to be 130, 140, but now I'm 80.

So that 40 pounds has to come off. Yeah, okay. And, you know, like, I'm just doing everything I possibly can get my hands on. I've always been a hustler. I've always been an entrepreneur.

Like, I love working with people. I love, I can go to the store and pick anything. I can design a house. I can, you know, that's what I have. I have people asking to do the windows, and then they are asking me to stage the house for furniture.

Yeah. All right. Relationship with someone who's a very professional person who works for RBC, who knows me as the person that I was before that and after that. And we were friends.

We were in the same crowd. Everybody that knows me doesn't judge me because they know how high it is to wake up one morning and have the whole world change and not to know how to go buy it. Like, see, that's the thing.

My parents are immigrants, and they have so many issues studying their life in Canada that they never did what I do with my children. Do you believe me? I lecture them 24-7. My daughter says, Mom, I'm gonna block you

if you don't stop. You know why I'm doing that? Because I know what it's like to have no knowledge. I say to myself, oh my God, how come I didn't know then what I know today? How could I just stop and think?

How come I didn't go to the court and say, listen, I need to change your condition? And when you have the shittiest lawyers that are from courtrooms, they don't care to save you. They just need the basics. What? A court officer, a legal leader,

a lawyer couldn't tell me, listen, Marina, you know you have the kids. You can't keep reaching your bail. We need to file a motion to change your condition. But if you have a $500, $500 or $300 in our lawyer, you can, you know what?

Marco Muzo, I'm sure you've heard on the news. I know the family. A guy who had everything going for himself. I thought that. Do you know the story? I'm sure you've heard the story.

Actually, I don't. Tell me about this. Marco Muzo is a guy who's from a billionaire. He's the next thing to the throne, a billionaire guy from King City, which is not so far from Litchfield Hill.

His mom is a billionaire from Litchfield Hill. He has a soccer field and everything. He was about to get married October 19th. He comes home from his dad in Las Vegas, gets into his fully loaded SUV, drives home and kills. He was drunk, drives home and kills.

A grandfather with three children, three children. Wow. Now, I didn't hear anything about this. A guy? It's all over the news, it's all over the media. A guy? A guy.

This has never heard a fly. Now he's whole life is ruined because of an innocence to the decisions he made. I feel sorry for the family that lost the three children and the father. And I feel sorry for Marco Muzo because he's stupid.

And that's what I was. I was stupid. I didn't think. The family hired green, green, what's his name? Eddie Greenstone. Green, yeah.

And I know he's gonna walk. There's gonna be millions dollars donated to the police, to the court, to the family, and he'll walk. And that's what I was trying to say when people have money, you can get away. It doesn't mean what you're doing is right.

There's no question in my mind that the justice system works differently for different groups. It does work differently. And when you're inside, it doesn't work for you at all. Dr. Bagai, I was given four months consecutive for billing because it was fraud, not because I cashed check for billing.

But the balance came from him. The doctor says, Irina, this is what you bill. You don't know what the doctor does when he's in the room with the patient. Yeah. And that's when the police saw a little bit of a difference

in me and he talked to me, he spoke to me. And I said to him, you don't have to believe me, but see if it makes sense to you. And it made a lot of sense to him. And then I gave him a patient's name and then he spoke to those patients

and it was all the truth. So it's like I'm telling you the truth right now, you really would be surprised as to what's really going on with those deaths over there. But they're not scared because they have the money and they blame their staff.

And if anyone can learn to do fraud, they learn from the best, the doctors themselves. I will tell you this with my blood. And I'm sorry if you disagree with me because you represent them, right? So you can't believe me, but the down the side, you know.

No, I know fully that they're not perfect and that some of them break the rules too. I absolutely know that. Yeah, there's a lot of nice dentists out there. I don't know why they haven't come my way. But there's a lot of also good people out there

that love people, that steal people for their addiction. But I didn't have anything, I don't smoke, I don't drink, I've never tried weed in my life. I'm a good girl, like I come from a good family, but I got screwed out. I had a traumatic disorder that I wasn't aware.

I didn't want to seek any help. It was an embarrassment. And I just think myself in more. Well, if I could just to kind of round things out.

So when you went to prison, which jail? So for the first couple of months until all the charges. And again, I had a legal laid lawyer, so it's longer than normal. Yeah. I was at the venue, which is in Milton.

And then I was transferred to Grand Valley Institute, which is in Kitchener. Okay, yeah, because you've got several time, right? You said two years plus a day. No, two years plus a day. I was out on parole because it's a nonviolent charge.

I was out on parole in six months. Yeah. But then I breached my parole. Okay, so what condition did you breach again the one about working in dental office? Yeah, there wasn't fraud charges.

It's just that I was back to work because my kids were wearing Peterboard. They desperately wanted me to get a place and come home. So I went back and I did the remaining. And then I came home and it started by the second. So that was, it was Dr. Ashkivari you worked for then?

Was that that was after you got out of prison? Or who did you work for? Okay, all right. And you were ordered to pay restitution to somebody, right? It was a free standing restitution.

Okay, what does that mean? That means you have the money you pay if you don't. You did your time and, you know. Okay, you didn't pay anything back then on the restitution? No, whatever it has restitution to be paid. That said, I have to pay.

I paid back. But whatever was standing. Okay. So how much do you think you paid back in restitution? I think it'd be $5,000. Okay.

It was part of my probation. Like I had to show monthly receipts, like whatever. I can't even think that far anymore. But I never breached any conditions except for months that I went back to work.

Everything else that I had to like, and my probation officer was really nice to me. And he even knew that some people were taking advantage of my situation. I would tell him everything. Even people that sold my ID and opened up a bank account

and tried to like, and I even had like a police officer looking to my file. And then they realized that it wasn't me because you know, like we had nothing to charge me for. So Dr. Ashkivari was the last dental office you worked in then?

Let me think. Let me think. Thank you. Honestly, I can't remember right now. I think it was somewhere else, but I think I left after

because I couldn't handle anything more. Okay. All right.

I have to say that- If you ever think of anything else, you can wait more than happy to call me. If I'm unavailable, I'll be more than happy to call you back. I enjoyed our conversation.

I don't think you're out to hurt me because I think that- Absolutely not. You've been hurt enough. But I think your article about me is wrong. Okay.

I'm not enough to represent the job from dental office to dental office, still money. And I sure don't have the money that I'm being, you know, original about it.

Okay. I'd like to write another article. I think this one would be a lot more sympathetic to you than anything we've written before. And, you know, as I said at the beginning,

I'm more than happy to show it to you, you know, and get your input. I mean, you- So why you represent the doctors? Okay. But I spend a big part of my life

trying to understand the Beselers. You what, sorry? I spend a lot of my life trying to understand the Beselers. You're right. I want to help the next doctor,

but I want to, you know, I think the more that he can understand about, or she can understand about, how people think when they're feeling, the better. You know what Dr. Schwartz said?

That was his name, Dr. Friedman said. He said, he said, and of course he said to my son, your mother is an amazing person. She's a wonderful woman and a hard worker.

I mean, I wasn't thinking I was stupid. I was embarrassed. I woke up one world and from making 100,000 a year and living in a custom of home that I designed and we built with my ex-husband, I was living in a room where my furniture

and my things were in storage. Yeah, wow. And I would follow, like there's people that have houses and they're right like 10 rooms. Yeah.

And that's what I was doing. And families didn't want to have anything to do with it. Don't come from a family with money. I'd like to tell your story and I'm quite happy to have you help me do it. So, you know, let's do that.

And, you know, we can talk later about whether it is better for you to have your name in it or not. And I'm open to do whatever. Where would you publish it? I just want you to comment it too.

Because I'm having such a high time trusting people. It would go in a couple of places. You know, there's really only one company that publishes for dentists in Canada. These are the folks who, their magazine is called, I think it used to be called Dental Practice Management.

It's now called Oral Health Office. Okay. Or in the US, there are a couple of places that publish our articles. But in Canada, it's only Oral Health? Yeah, Oral Health or Oral Health Office.

The publisher is somebody called Melissa Somerfield. Actually, I'm in Washington, DC. There are about three places that publish. What about Alfa Amiga and all that other stuff? I don't, they have any interest in this just because of the other parties involved.

But Oral Health Office is the biggest in the country. Now, I am not going to, I'm not going to name specific dentists or skewer them here because that will get me sued. Again, I think if we do this... Why? Because, so then I can sue you

because you wrote a false story about me. Well, that's your choice. No, but that's what I'm trying to say to you. But then you're afraid to publish their names because that means that you don't believe me, but you believe them.

I will probably not name names, but I will, you know, we can certainly develop the point that you were working for dentists who drank the rules. Why don't you let me put this together and have a look at it?

And again, I'm quite happy to have your input. Do you have an email address that you can email me to answer? That's what I was going to ask for. Yeah, what's the best email address? So in small letters, Josh, J-O-S-H,

Jess, J-E-S-S, and just score, mylifethathasmail.com. Okay, I'll just send you an email that says hi. Okay, I'll just sign back. More or less, just so you've got my email address. That's great.

And, you know, I want to think about what we've said for a couple of days. I think you're a little bit overwhelmed with my story. Well, I absolutely... Down inside, you believe... I absolutely am.

And yes, I do believe a lot of what I've heard today. I can give you addresses where I lived. I can give you people. You can call that lawyer who represented me, camera from College Park. Okay, I don't know if we need to do that,

but let me get the story together. It's going to take me probably a month. Tell me you disappointed that I'm not that person that... Oh, not at all. Not at all. I'm interested in the truth.

And I know I got a lot of truth today. I hope I have a great day and peace. Yeah, and I'm happy to tell your story. And if we got something wrong before, I'll say that. I enjoyed... What sign are you?

Can I ask you a question? I just want to understand your personality. I love astrology. I'm all about it. Okay. I don't need your birthday.

No, July 22nd is my birthday. I think... Yeah, Leo. No, I'm the next one over. Astrology isn't something I know a whole lot about, but I'm on the...

July 22nd? You're on the cancer, no? Cancer. I'm a cancer, I think. Cancer is just about... Yeah, so my best and last is a cancer.

She works for Dr. Kirshen's daughter. Okay. She opened up an office in Berry, and it's already flagged. Yikes. Look, I want to thank you again for doing this.

I know it wasn't easy for you. It wasn't. I wanted to do it for the longest time. I just don't think anyone would believe me. That's what I mean. Like, if I had the money to write the book I would.

And I knew if I was to put everything in it, it would make a lot of sense. I mean, I hope you think I believe you. I hope you do. I know you do because I know some things, you know, make sense because you have experience.

Oh, and the only reason I went back to the dental front is because after having my daughter, that's when Able and a lot of dental software programs came out. And I'm really good. I'm very good. I have a COD like my house is spotless.

I had a dog. You can't tell that I have a hair in the house. I'm very organized. I'm very good at multitasking. In fact, there was a few jobs that I got fired from because I would make other girls look bad

because I was clean, fast, efficient, and you know, they were just slow. So the doctors approached me. Dr. Cole, where I worked for 10 years on and off, approached me to start inputting patients into the system.

And I liked the front. People liked me. I knew how to sell dentistry because, you know, the dentist can recommend the treatment, but it's up to the front desk to book the appointment. So I liked it.

And I never went back to assisting again. Unless I had to, like, back and forth. Okay. Well, I worked for Dr. Tomkins. I worked for Dr. Kermitchik when I was pregnant with my daughter, when I was pregnant with my...

I've never done fun in my life before. Never. My very first dental office spot started with the treatment. You know that. I'm not lying to you about that. You know that.

No, I know that. Okay. Well, I'd love to meet you in person. Please. You'll be really fascinated. I promise you.

I mean, yeah, I know. I travel a lot, but most of the time I go to the U.S. and I'm not in Toronto very much, but I am scheduled. Now, here, let me give you something to think about. The Ontario Dental Association does an annual spring meeting.

Okay. So this is at the conference center in Toronto. And I'm speaking there this year. Oh, wow. And so that's in... I'm thinking it's either April or May and I forget the dates.

I can look it up. I will be there then for sure. And, you know, I think the association wants to do a video with me

and they invited me to come and do video with them sometime before. So I'm not sure when that'll happen, but... Okay. In the worst case, I'll be in... I'll send you the dates. I'll be in...

Yeah, by the means of it. I would love to meet you for a coffee. That would be great. Let's... How many fastest do you need for a coffee? Well, not enough.

Not enough? Or this would be the very first one? No, I have before, but you are... You know, you are one I'd really like to meet. So let's plan on that anyway if I'm not there before. I think you should change your career.

I think you should start representing the people that are messed up, have some issues, and put away the doctors. Because then I can go work for you and tell you what's going on. Because I can hire everywhere because I have a good experience. I'm good at what I do that doesn't take away from what I did, but I'm good at what I do.

I'm a hard worker. I've been working since I was 12 since I came to Canada. And I've always won the awards. I've always like, if I worked at McDonald's, then I was the crew, you know, leader and whatever, whatever. And that's why my marriage fell apart.

It's because I overgrew my husband and it became an issue. And then he married someone that is 500 pounds lazy, didn't want to work, had a child with her, and now he's going to a divorce and he's my best friend. Okay. I'm smiling a lot.

Anyway, I would absolutely love to meet you. We'll make it happen. Okay. Deal. Now, I'm going to stop the recording will stop when I hang up. Okay.

And I promised you a copy of it. Would you like the recording? Sure. How would you send it to me? To your email or? It's probably too big to email.

So I think what I'll do if it's okay is I'll set up the Dropbox account and invite you to the Dropbox. I don't know. What is that? Dropbox? It's a way of sharing like photos and big documents

through the cloud, like stuff that's too big to email. I'll see what the size of this is, but I think it would fill up your portal hotmail account. Then you'll have to let me know how to use this Dropbox. Yeah. I'm not very like...

Okay. Not aware of it. I know Instagram and Outface, but because of my kids, that's it. Okay. You'll get an invitation to join. You join and then you can download the file.

It's not... I don't think you'll find it hard. Okay, that's all right. Okay, Irina. Well, thank you again. This was a most interesting conversation that we had,

and I look forward to talking with you again. I'm just going to ask you for one thing. Please. Don't ruin me with this interview. I'm asking you. Absolutely will not.

As I say, whether we use your name or not is going to be your decision. Okay. All right. And not just name. I mean identity in general.

I am quite happy to write an article about a very interesting conversation I had with an anonymous ambassador. Okay. I'm... And they don't have to know that you live in Canada even. Okay.

I'll think about that. Okay. Some ways, some ways, because it was written about me, I would blot to clear my name and I have nothing... Like how much more is going to get by writing my name, right? Yeah.

But I'll read the article first and then we can decide. That's exactly what I'd like to happen. Okay. Because I want to be fair to you. You know, you said some stuff to me today about yourself, good and bad.

And I... Well, I thought I was screwed up. I didn't lie to you. I have no support in my family. No. That's how much I wish a different person to my kids.

Yeah. You did. And so let's get the article going and then you can, you can make that decision. Okay. I'm just going to say my last two words.

Sometimes, sometimes when you feel like you're all alone against the world, you don't know what the right decision is. And you don't know who to go for help. You go to say colleges or therapists, which I went through a lot in GVI and,

and then you're just there to listen and to prescribe meds for you. I don't want meds because I'm not crazy. Yeah. Meds make you sleepy. Meds make you sad.

Meds make you... I've never taken one pill. And you can get that from the records from all the jails. However, you just feel so lost that you don't know what the right decision is anymore.

And when you're insecure and my sickness, I'm very co-dependent. I need to do things to please others. And sometimes I just don't stop and think. Is there a label for what you have? You mentioned it a couple of times.

A what? Is there a name, a condition that you have? You mentioned it a couple of times. I have. I have a post traumatic depression. It's something that you're not even aware that you

have. It was diagnosed when I was in jail. After my divorce, you can suffer a trauma that it's like your body... Your soul starts out of your body. It's a different person that's functioning.

Okay. PTSD, basically. I had businesses. I had franchises. I had homes. I lost my home.

Sheriff came and sealed it. My daughter came home and there was a seal on it. Like, how does someone just say, okay, no problem. We'll just get another house. I don't know.

Okay, ma'am. I can go on to another... No problem. But again, thank you so much. It won't be as fascinating as mine. It absolutely will not.

It will not. And so I'll set up that Dropbox account and post this. If the recording worked, I'll share it with you. It's kind of new technology, so I'm hoping that it worked. No problem. And we'll stay in touch.

Thank you, David. I enjoyed this. I'm sending you an email. I'm still having an email address. I'll do that right now. All right.

Have a good day. I'm exhausted. Okay. I bet you are. Bye. Bye.

Thank you.